Questions about health studies and legality

[Citrus]

I hope this is the right part of the forum. For those of you who haven't noticed, I'm not the best at putting things in the right place...

I have a couple of questions about the legal and health aspects of e-cigs.

1) The main "medical objection" to vaping seems to be that there haven't been any clinical studies done. I saw a quote that said something like "We don't know what the effects are after three years, five years, ten years..." Well why don't they get on and do some, then? Ruyan started making e-cigs in 2004, right? So there must be people who've been vaping for almost ten years. Have more of them dropped dead than the general population? More than the smoking population? I sincerely doubt the latter (and the former, actually)`.

2) Haven't the components been tested separately in other contexts? Theatrical smoke and workplace exposure to PG and VG, medical grade nicotine in products including inhalators...the only thing I'm not sure about is food-grade flavouring for inhalation, but I'm sure we could all live with adding our own (or buying pre-made flavour blends to add to a basic liquid) if it came to it. Rather than have the things banned or charged prescription prices for, I mean - I'm certainly not advocating for it.

3) If the government were to ban vaping or tax it like tobacco, wouldn't people be able to make their own anyway? As I understand it (which isn't much, so correct me if I'm wrong), you can cobble together a workable kit from a battery, switch, wire, cotton wool and some sort of appropriately sized plastic or pyrex doohickey, if you're not worried about aesthetics and have the know-how. You can buy VG and PG for a range of reasons (you can get VG at Boots, for goodness' sake!) and you could make a tobacco infusion for nicotine content if it's not possible to buy medical-grade nicotine. I'm not advocating doing anything illegal in the event of a change in the law, which I assume is against forum rules anyway, but growing your own tobacco isn't illegal in the UK (or much of anywhere), so I can't see how making your own kit and juice would be either. Of course, it would put a crimp in the businesses of our wonderful vendors, but I don't see that it would stop individual vapers in their tracks if they were keen enough.

TL; DR: Why are the government and the health organisations so stupid and awkward?

 

[Fleabag]

This was always part of the problem - those who were pushing for medicalisation seemed to be only thinking in terms of cig-a-likes - which it was likely would be the only type of product permitted on the market, and then in limited nic levels and flavours.

To police the type of product most serious vapers move on to would be so much more complex. Would they ban the hardware? - that seems heavy-handed when you can legally buy bongs, cannabis grinders etc.

They couldn't ban PG, VG, food flavourings - they're used in too many other products

The only essential part of the process they could arguably ban is the nicotine solution, but even that would be a legal minefield when cigarettes would remain readily availably on every street corner.
Making nicotine solution would probably be a little too complicated for most people, and I suspect that tobacco doesn't grow well here (or we'd be farming it, I imagine) - so we'd need to import leaves and steep them in PG or VG (which of course would be legal, as no-one is attempting to limit the importation of tobacco leaves).

The legality of restricting nicotine in one form but not in another (more harmful) one, and the determined campaigning of users, is what helped to stall the EU plans, and will no doubt force the UK government to U-turn on the medicalisation.

I'm sure that one of the pharmaceutical companies will go ahead and make a cigalike and license it as an NRT, and I'm sure those will help people more than existing NRTs - though it does bother me that they may not contain sufficient nicotine or user satisfaction to be nearly as effective as the products we use, and this may deter those who have been prescribed a form of e-cig from trying a better system, and instead returning to cigarettes.

 

[Citrus]

I'm sort of in favour of a prescribable cig-a-like, if only because it would have got me off the coffin nails that much sooner, if it was similar to commercially available cig-a-likes. But I share your concern that vaping is worlds better, mainly, IMO, because it's more customisable in terms of nic level, throat hit, flavour, frequency, cost, level of time vs money investment, etc, etc. Basically you can work it to suit you.

 

[Tromain]

Fleabag I agree with most of what you say there, just wanted to drop a lil info I've picked up over the last year and a half.

Tobacco does grow well in the UK, but you need to have polytunnels etc for them, got a mate that grows his own and has 20 plants in his allotment right now. You could steep the leaves in pg/vg but the nic content of the resulting liquid would be miniscule, as steeping is a poor way to extract the nic. To make pharma grade nic they dissolve the leaves in acid, add something else to neutralise the acid and crystallize the nic, then repeat the process over and over til they get pure nicotine crystals, which are then dissolved into pg/vg. The chemicals used in that process are highly dangerous and are only available(as far as I know) to proper labs.

You can however make a tobacco concentrate for flavoring by steeping the leaves, but the nic content of any juice mixed with it would be variable depending on how little/much nic comes out in the steep.

 

[Tromain]

I'm sort of in favour of a prescribable cig-a-like, if only because it would have got me off the coffin nails that much sooner, if it was similar to commercially available cig-a-likes. But I share your concern that vaping is worlds better, mainly, IMO, because it's more customisable in terms of nic level, throat hit, flavour, frequency, cost, level of time vs money investment, etc, etc. Basically you can work it to suit you.

Only problem there is once a cig-a-like is on script, the NHS could fully tout e-cigs as proper NRT, with the aim of stopping smoking, the fact we have fought the classification as a stop smoking device and instead called it a healthier alternative is the key factor in the gov not being able to reclassify and ban them.

 

[Chegs]

To obtain lethal concentrates of nicotine,I refer you to the "jolly roger cookbook" as I recall reading about taking umpteen cigarette butts,add water & simmer until your left with an evil sticky sludge,then apply to a ball of paper(roll-up papers I believe were mentioned)find your victim(preferably not one who's observant enough to ask why your wearing rubber gloves)& flick the paper ball onto their skin.It's supposed to give your victim a nicotine headache,but can be made into fatal doses.

I read this a long time ago,before I had access to t'internet.

 

[Citrus]

I see your point, Tromain. Please do feel free to point out where I've got it wrapped around my neck. I'm asking because I'd like answers, not because I think I have them ;-)

 

[KulrMeStoopid]

Read blogs by Gerry Stimson, Dick Puddlecote, Clive Bates, Dr Konstantinos Farasalinos...check out websites like saveecigs.com www.eccauk.org and watch VTTV videos

 

[Fleabag]

I don't think I have a problem if pharma want to put out a stop smoking version of the product, as long as it doesn't interfere with the availability and future innovation of our products.

However, what this might do to the market and the perception of potential converts, I'm not sure - with one "medically approved" product vs the vaping underword

 

[Fleabag]

@Fleabag I agree with most of what you say there, just wanted to drop a lil info I've picked up over the last year and a half.

Tobacco does grow well in the UK, but you need to have polytunnels etc for them, got a mate that grows his own and has 20 plants in his allotment right now. You could steep the leaves in pg/vg but the nic content of the resulting liquid would be miniscule, as steeping is a poor way to extract the nic. To make pharma grade nic they dissolve the leaves in acid, add something else to neutralise the acid and crystallize the nic, then repeat the process over and over til they get pure nicotine crystals, which are then dissolved into pg/vg. The chemicals used in that process are highly dangerous and are only available(as far as I know) to proper labs.

You can however make a tobacco concentrate for flavoring by steeping the leaves, but the nic content of any juice mixed with it would be variable depending on how little/much nic comes out in the steep.

I didn't pretend to know how one would make a nic solution - though I have heard of commercial tobacco flavourings being achieved through steeping - perhaps mostly for flavour and nic levels are topped up with concentrates.