OFFICIAL ITV Rise of The E-Cig discussion

[Chegs]

Nobody has stated you're not entitled to hold that opinion szaxe,just tried to explain why their opinion differs.

 

[Szaxe]

That doesn't appear to be an opinion to me ....

Complain to Ofcom if you think they have broken any codes of practise. They haven't, your complaint will not be listened to.

 

[Szaxe]

Just to be clear, I have offered my opinion except for one statement. OFCOM do have a code of practice that forbids "impartiality" ... Impartiality means both sides of the story is told.

The program included a direct violation of the code of practice for OFCOM, "Impartiality".

The story of the death was told by the widow and ITV .... no one from the e-cig industry had a chance of rebuttal .... You can not count the ITV pointing out it was not Proven as a balanced rebuttal, they had an interest in the story.

Whether or not OFCOM will uphold the complaint is opinion ... But only airing one side of an accusation is not impartial !!!

 

[Numpty]

The program included a direct violation of the code of practice for OFCOM, "Impartiality". Such a serious claim .. a persons death warranted a balance .... There are balances available from scientists showing Lipoid Pneumonia can not be caused by vaping, which should have been aired .... If (and a big if) ITV were not aware of the available evidence they should have been, its what they are paid extraordinary amounts of money to do ...

That ITV were willing to clearly violate OFCOMS rules, shows that their Agenda outweighed the possibility or the consequences of their action.

People are free to think positively about that perverse program, that is their choice, but don't expect me to agree ....

I think you make some very valid points here about they way things are being communicated and how so much of the the information being put across in the media is clearly being carefully selected but I do question whether Lipoid Pneumonia could be caused by vaping.

I'm not medically trained but given that this condition has been known to be caused by machinists inhaling vaporized oil present in the air of engineering and machine shops it would seem reasonable to suspect a similar condition could be caused by someone using a homegrown juice or one made by one of the many vendors that have popped up that has been flavored by a none water based food flavoring. This is the area I think regulation and checks are most needed, not this medicinal B/S that's being pushed but a simple requirement to give full information regarding the ingredients used with hygiene standards that fall inline with a bakery or pie maker.

I think the long term effects of vaping a juice made at home or by a poorly informed mixer that uses incorrect (oil based) flavorings would almost certainly lead to Lipoid Pneumonia, go look at the cake making section in your local supermarket and read the coloring and flavoring labels and see how few are water based, who here knows their chosen juice is 100% oil free ?

There are guidelines on juice production but who's checking ? We can't check for ourselves and many juices are made overseas, given that China has a real problem with activities such as recovering cooking oil from the sewer system, which is killing people, would it not make sense to have a few simple tests to certify what we ingest ?
I think it would be interesting to find out what juices the guy from the TV program used and have them tested.

Example of Chinese hygiene standards
Another reference

I think we need a little more than good faith...

 

[Szaxe]

In my opinion E Liquid is not made from oil !!! so if someone vapes oil based food flavoring mixed with nicotine they are not vaping E liquid ... If someone sells oil laced liquid with nicotine it is not E liquid .... The ITV did not say E liquid does not contain oil, they just said the man died 8 months after switching to E -cigs and a Doctor considered vaping had caused the Lipoid Pneumonia ... I'm sure the widow didn't know about this ailment or had considered E-cigs until the misinformed Doctor raised this suggestion ...

IF a man switched from alcohol to water (mixed with meths) and died six months later from kidney failure it would not be balanced to infer water may have been the cause!! and especially without pointing out that pure water is unlikely to cause kidney failure unless mixed with another substance.

If a Doctor had suggested such and ITV had reported it, even with the proviso and (pop ups) "it was not proven", we wouldn't be having this conversation.

There was no claim that any criminal gangs were selling oil laced liquid to the man or he was mixing oil with nicotine. If that was suspected it should have been raised in the program ... or the Doctors and the widows incorrect assumption shouldn't have been included !!!!

PS, would be nice if a Vendor sued ITV for Injurious/Malicious Falsehood.

 

[Numpty]

In my opinion E Liquid is not made from oil !!! so if someone vapes oil based food flavoring mixed with nicotine they are not vaping E liquid ... If someone sells oil laced liquid with nicotine it is not E liquid .... The ITV did not say E liquid does not contain oil, they just said the man died 8 months after switching to E -cigs and a Doctor considered vaping had caused the Lipoid Pneumonia ... I'm sure the widow didn't know about this ailment or had considered E-cigs until the misinformed Doctor raised this suggestion ...

IF a man switched from alcohol to water (mixed with meths) and died six months later from kidney failure it would not be balanced to infer water may have been the cause!! and especially without pointing out that pure water is unlikely to cause kidney failure unless mixed with another substance.

If a Doctor had suggested such and ITV had reported it, even with the proviso and (pop ups) "it was not proven", we wouldn't be having this conversation.

There was no claim that any criminal gangs were selling oil laced liquid to the man or he was mixing oil with nicotine. If that was suspected it should have been raised in the program ... or the Doctors and the widows incorrect assumption shouldn't have been included !!!!

PS, would be nice if a Vendor sued ITV for Injurious/Malicious Falsehood.

I pretty much agree with all you are saying as the program did not offer a balanced view, I also agree 'proper' e liquid should not contain oil but being as the majority of food based flavorings are oil based how do we know the correct water based ones are the only ones being used?
As it stands I could start producing an E Liquid tomorrow, let's for arguments sake assume it's the most amazing flavor anyone has tried thus far....
What's in it ?
Taste is fantastic, good throat hit, clouds of vapor and a few people have visited my kitchen and confirm it is of the highest standards of hygiene, all ingredients are accurately measured and bottled, my recipe is a secret, have I added just a drop or 2 of something oil based ?

The bottom line is, what you say about the program I agree with my problem is your blanket statement that E Liquid cannot cause Lipoid Pneumonia....
It absolutely could if the 'chef' accidentally or through lack of knowledge used the wrong ingredients.

We do not know for sure what's in the E Liquids we are using and we do not individually have the equipment or expertise to check that what we are using is oil free and to a standard fit for human consumption.

"Assumption is the mother of all f*ck ups "

 

[Szaxe]

I believe if a vendor had sold oil based e Liquid he would be guilty of a crime (even if he was unaware of the obvious dangers that are made clear by our own industry associations), the same as if I used meths in a soft drink.

No one can stop crooks or idiots putting the wrong things into products, the ITV don't run stories inferring wine may dangerous because some crooks mix it with anti freeze. or at least without pointing out that anti freeze is not a normal ingredient of wine produced by reputable vendors and is the action of crooks.

 

[Numpty]

I believe if a vendor had sold oil based e Liquid he would be guilty of a crime (even if he was unaware of the obvious dangers that are made clear by our own industry associations), the same as if I used meths in a soft drink.

No one can stop crooks or idiots putting the wrong things into products, the ITV don't run stories inferring wine may dangerous because some crooks mix it with anti freeze. or at least without pointing out that anti freeze is not a normal ingredient of wine produced by reputable vendors and is the action of crooks.

Agreed, but isn't it the lack of knowledge as to what's in the juice and it's long term effects that's driving the attempts to over regulate ?
I just think the vaping community should try and cover this potential problem before there is a disaster, if crap juice is shown to have harmed just one user it will be used to overshadow the fact vaping has already produced many thousands of non smokers that are getting healthier by the day.

E cigs are booming there will be those jump on board for the fast buck after seeing some of the sales figures being quoted, antifreeze vodka anyone ?
As I said before the problem could be accidental due to someone not completely understanding the ingredients, bringing criminal proceedings against someone getting it wrong is by definition way too late and would get the worlds biggest "I told you so" from those trying to take vaping away from us.

The program didn't offer a balance and the reporter had a limited understanding, he wasn't a vapor and probably not a smoker, next week he could be reporting on the pet trade, he knows f all about that too.
The point for me is we don't know if there was a connection to the death of a vapor, it would be just as crap for us to say it was impossible as it was for him to suggest it might have been with out professional argument, I say let's find out and make the possibility vanish.

 

[Szaxe]

http://www.ecita.org.uk/blog/index.php/lipoid-pneumonia-crossbows-research/

Also from earlier in this very thread ... Dr Farsolina's is an eminent scientist .... In fact the European Commission used his research to formulate art 18 of the TPD, however both this Doctor and many other eminent scientists used have complained to the Commission that their work has been misrepresented!!!!

 

[madpiano]

Although food flavours are called "oils" they are not. They are PG or alcohol based.
What is oil based are the cheap oil burner oils that are available at pound shops.

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