TC - the maths and the real world

[scrumpox]

I'm no physicist, I'm a vaper exploring TC. I don't want dry hits and I don't get them. I don't run my juice down until the wick is dry. I don't want to burn my juice or gunk the coils ... in these respects I am succeeding with TC.

Whilst I read the excellent information put out by @danb and @Tubbyengineer etc., I continue to build using Stealthvape's Ti01 and NiFe30 wire. My mod however, the iPV D2, has no setting for NiFe30, so I select Ni200 when using NIffy. I've looked at the graphs on SteamEngine but I'm not sure I understand or need to understand why Niffy vapes cool on the Ti01 setting but nicely warm on the Ni200 setting.

There's a thing called temperature offset. There's some mathematical formula sitting inside the D2's firmware enabling it to calculate the temperature at the coil, I assume it's approximate, a good guess. Niffy isn't Ni200 is it?

So here comes the real world. Whether using Ti01 or Niffy, with a new build I work up the temperature until I get the warmth of vape that I want. Then adjust the Joules, so the ramp up is pretty much immediate, but wanting as low a value as possible - my assumption is throwing 50J is a waste of time if the rattlesnake sound tells me the TC is kicking in just about immediately at 30J. Fewer Joules should mean longer battery life, I think.

Should I care what the actual temperature of the coil is, or what the mod thinks it is? Isn't the real world experience everything here and the maths basically immaterial? Can I vape in blissful ignorance of the software/firmware calculating behind the scenes? Educate me, please.

 

[Mr Numpty]

Can I vape in blissful ignorance of the software/firmware calculating behind the scenes?

I certainly do, and the vaping experience doesn't appear to be suffering.

 

[jsixtysix]

Don't think we have much choice tbh.
Also, wasn't Farsolinos crowd-funded to look into all this? Strangely silent ever since. Hopefully someone knows better...?

 

[Mr Numpty]

I do love the idea with the dna 200 where you can input a mysterious and magical number that corresponds to any new wire they might bring out, though. Yes, lovely dna 200 chip, this wire's coefficient of resistance temperature modifier ratio thing is 0.000726, now work your magic.

 

[scrumpox]

@jsixtysix - yep, this TC lark still exhibits all the signs of being a very immature technology, the one-eyed are leading the blind. The circle doesn't quite join up until the studies catch up.

@Mr Numpty - an educated guess is still a guess, isn't it? Maybe David Blaine and Dynamo are collaborating on their black box?

... and when will the juice manufacturers start to move on this?

 

[danb]

Should I care what the actual temperature of the coil is, or what the mod thinks it is? Isn't the real world experience everything here and the maths basically immaterial? Can I vape in blissful ignorance of the software/firmware calculating behind the scenes? Educate me, please.

It is true that from a practical point of view, you can just use the temperature setting as an arbitrary dial that runs from low to high, like a shower, and just ramp it up until it feels nice, without paying attention to the actual number you have set it to.

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, not everyone is interested in the details and that's fine. If you know what setting you theoretically need, then it is easier to tell when something is wrong (like a miscalibration or static resistance issue). I regularly used to diagnose static resistance problems with Ni200 this way, unexpected behaviour sent me checking my contacts until I found the dodgy one (I don't use Ni200 any more). That said, you can usually happily vape with a static resistance (provided it doesn't fluctuate) or miscalibration by applying the appropriate offset (determined by the shower method). It's also pretty unlikely that these issues could develop into bigger problems if you decide not to correct them. You certainly don't have to be into the maths to get a good vape.

The maths is more useful for other related things though, like working out which wire materials you can use in your device and predicting which materials best serves your purposes. I'd never have started using NiFe48 if I hadn't sat down and analysed the data for myself. There is good information on different wire types available, I am certainly not the first person consider this kind of thing, but most of it is in a 135 page monster thread on ECF that I can't be arsed to trawl through - I couldn't find a coherent analysis elsewhere so I did it myself. I enjoy that kind of stuff.

 

[Mr Numpty]

@Mr Numpty - an educated guess is still a guess, isn't it? Maybe David Blaine and Dynamo are collaborating on their black box?

... and when will the juice manufacturers start to move on this?

Having a brain dead day here, sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying in either of these two points.

 

[scrumpox]

It is true that from a practical point of view, you can just use the temperature setting as an arbitrary dial that runs from low to high, like a shower, and just ramp it up until it feels nice, without paying attention to the actual number you have set it to.

Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, not everyone is interested in the details and that's fine. If you know what setting you theoretically need, then it is easier to tell when something is wrong (like a miscalibration or static resistance issue). I regularly used to diagnose static resistance problems with Ni200 this way, unexpected behaviour sent me checking my contacts until I found the dodgy one (I don't use Ni200 any more). That said, you can usually happily vape with a static resistance (provided it doesn't fluctuate) or miscalibration by applying the appropriate offset (determined by the shower method). It's also pretty unlikely that these issues could develop into bigger problems if you decide not to correct them. You certainly don't have to be into the maths to get a good vape.

The maths is more useful for other related things though, like working out which wire materials you can use in your device and predicting which materials best serves your purposes. I'd never have started using NiFe48 if I hadn't sat down and analysed the data for myself. There is good information on different wire types available, I am certainly not the first person consider this kind of thing, but most of it is in a 135 page monster thread on ECF that I can't be arsed to trawl through - I couldn't find a coherent analysis elsewhere so I did it myself. I enjoy that kind of stuff.

Your analysis scans well, makes for interesting reading. I've no idea though, much of it goes over the crossbar. Your shower analogy is a good one and it does piss me off when my perfect setting is changed by the youngest teenager who seems to need a cooler dowsing.

 

[scrumpox]

Having a brain dead day here, sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying in either of these two points.

I'm just playing with your magic analogy. It's cool.
Also, it's questioning the veracity of entering a number precise to 10 decimal places into a calculation that's only outputing a decent guess.

 

[billy_idle]

I don't think it matters as long as it works and the experience is enjoyable, and the batteries can take it. TC is so cheap today that nobody has to get an NVQ in electrical engineering to take a safe puff, imo. When the battery is low it says so, among other built in safety features. There is no accounting for idiots though who don't read about battery safety, or don't make sure they know what they are doing, but I'm sure future devices will be dummy proofed even more, which I think is great! Not everyone wants to know what the machine is doing to get the result. It is fun being a part of the 'emerging' technology though, and for me, fiddling with settings is interesting, which is why I like the features of the DNA 200. I'm sure that we will have regularly updated technology so that we continue to buy the latest level of coolness until devices are as easy to use and as accurate as they could have been far before they actually become available. I mean, the technology exists to do things like put a tiny thermocouple inside a tank, or have a more user friendly interface with the device where you can just use the built in touch screen which has friendly looking icons and navigation with customisable Themes like Windows. The present day devices will seem like amusing antiques in several years, but I'm sure the manufacturers will not miss the chance to trickle out technology so we are buying the many steps of technology between what they are making now and what they could really be making now. I'm not talking about Mod builders who work with the current technology, I mean the people who have the knowhow to mass produce the technology that is then taken and put together as a brand. It will be as easy as pie and we will not even need to know Ohm's law, or battery safety procedures. I don't think people coming to vaping at that level of tech will care that it isn't a challenge or a learning curve, and be happy to just fit in their nano fused clapton unit into their devices, whatever they are called then, add eliquid, swipe the temp bar up on the touch screen, and click the fire button. If manufacturers are smart they will not take away the customisable features we love for those of us who like to experiment with making our own coils etc, because there are alot of us about.....but at the end of the day it needs to be as easy as lighting a cigarette, but more fun.