(This is it) TPD Regulations 2016

[scrumpox]

I don't really want my juice to be made illegally in someone's shed, delivered in a lorry without a tachograph and sold at bootsales by someone who doesn't pay their taxes and sells pirated films as a sideline.

...... like vaping doesn't have a bad enough image already in some quarters.

A vote in favour of the TPD!
Might not be popular to say it out loud but I would agree that some of these regulations will benefit vapers.

 

[Simon G]

A vote in favour of the TPD!
Might not be popular to say it out loud but I would agree that some of these regulations will benefit vapers.

I'm certainly not against some regulation of the industry. I do care what my juice has in it and I do care where it's being made and I would like my devices to be as safe as possible to use .... but I don't think this should have been part of a 'tobacco products' directive and I don't think much of this was very well thought out at all.

The whole 2ml tank thing is stupid, the 10ml bottle thing is stupid and things that I think do need some attention seem to have not even been mentioned. It's almost like they weren't sure what to do so they just did 'something'

 

[mannikon]

A vote in favour of the TPD!
Might not be popular to say it out loud but I would agree that some of these regulations will benefit vapers.

Agree with you, I think some good may come out of it. Might weed out dodgy vendors!

 

[MrTeaTime]

mmmmm.......I think a few people might need to look a little deeper into this as the OP has touched on what we already know.....

.....it's the stuff that we don't know that should be ringing fucking loud alarm bells for 95% of vapers....

Would we all agree (or most anyway) that those of us on here are passionate and reasonably well informed...we are the "5%"

For the rest, those who just solely rely on premade juice and premade coils & atty's, are fucked

The silent majority of vapers will not be able to source the very stuff that has kept them off the fags....

And then there's the juice producers....this is where it's really going to bite....forget the only selling in 10ml bottles....I'm sure that if the likes of @puffinclouds @manabush @South Coast Vaper @PlumeBlu had only that to worry about, then I'm sure that they would be out dancing in there bare scuddies, Rejoicing to a naked statue of @Mawsley

Sadly, it's not so simple....the issue is much much more complex then just producing nic free juice.....

The flavour houses that actually supply all or at least most of what we vape may not actually supply juice manufactures with the concentrates they use.....and even if they do, they will be legally obliged to produce EXACTLY what goes into the juice.....so every juice producer will have there recipe on the side of the bottle....imagine that?

Ejuice concentrates is only a tiny percentage of there business anyway...so who's to say that they would continue anyway?

Now...I totally agree that juice needs to be regulated in some way.....how? I'm not sure....but if you get the chance to see the lengths that manabush & plumeblu go to then you would understand.....both @South Coast Vaper and @puffinclouds have given whole rooms to have a "mixing studio" that I as a consumer are more then happy (and I'm sure that you would too) to use with no problem at all....

My own thoughts on this are that Brussels are either throwing us a major red heering with the tpd in its currant form, and are just waiting to fuck us all up the bum with a massive piece of legislation that will make it impossible for our producers to make any, or....and this is the one I'm hoping for, they put into law something so unbelievably unworkable that the workarounds will be there to be exploited.....

I have the feeling the first of these is gonna happen...and that vaping as we know it will cease to exist in a few short years....

I fucking hope that I am totally wrong....but i fear that for once, I may be right......

 

[Mawsley]

My own thoughts on this are that Brussels are either throwing us a major red heering with the tpd in its currant form...

You're raisin some points there.

 

[mannikon]

mmmmm.......I think a few people might need to look a little deeper into this as the OP has touched on what we already know.....

.....it's the stuff that we don't know that should be ringing fucking loud alarm bells for 95% of vapers....

Would we all agree (or most anyway) that those of us on here are passionate and reasonably well informed...we are the "5%"

For the rest, those who just solely rely on premade juice and premade coils & atty's, are fucked

The silent majority of vapers will not be able to source the very stuff that has kept them off the fags....

And then there's the juice producers....this is where it's really going to bite....forget the only selling in 10ml bottles....I'm sure that if the likes of @puffinclouds @manabush @South Coast Vaper @PlumeBlu had only that to worry about, then I'm sure that they would be out dancing in there bare scuddies, Rejoicing to a naked statue of @Mawsley

Sadly, it's not so simple....the issue is much much more complex then just producing nic free juice.....

The flavour houses that actually supply all or at least most of what we vape may not actually supply juice manufactures with the concentrates they use.....and even if they do, they will be legally obliged to produce EXACTLY what goes into the juice.....so every juice producer will have there recipe on the side of the bottle....imagine that?

Ejuice concentrates is only a tiny percentage of there business anyway...so who's to say that they would continue anyway?

Now...I totally agree that juice needs to be regulated in some way.....how? I'm not sure....but if you get the chance to see the lengths that manabush & plumeblu go to then you would understand.....both @South Coast Vaper and @puffinclouds have given whole rooms to have a "mixing studio" that I as a consumer are more then happy (and I'm sure that you would too) to use with no problem at all....

My own thoughts on this are that Brussels are either throwing us a major red heering with the tpd in its currant form, and are just waiting to fuck us all up the bum with a massive piece of legislation that will make it impossible for our producers to make any, or....and this is the one I'm hoping for, they put into law something so unbelievably unworkable that the workarounds will be there to be exploited.....

I have the feeling the first of these is gonna happen...and that vaping as we know it will cease to exist in a few short years....

I fucking hope that I am totally wrong....but i fear that for once, I may be right......

You're wrong on many issues there. The whole issue of revealing recipes and proprietary blends has been gone through and no-one will be forced to show their recipes,
Coils are electrical components are are outside the scope of any proposed regs.
Brussels has nothing to do with this any more. This is about transposing the Directive into local law i.e. UK law which is why it is a Reg (or SI). No Directive from the EU is legally binding on any single member state. Each EU member state adapts Directives in their own fashion. Our (UK) H&S Regs are different to those in other EU states. Our TP Regs will be very different to the way other EU member states transpose the Directive. The UK (because of the NHS and Public Health England inter alia) is toning it right down, so-called "light touch".
Reputable UK juice houses will survive. Zero nic juice if not offered in nic variations is outside the scope of any impending Regs.
There's lots more and as already mentioned by many people, there are so many loopholes, any vaper with half a brain will run rings around any half-arsed enforcement attempts.

 

[Simon G]

mmmmm.......I think a few people might need to look a little deeper into this as the OP has touched on what we already know.....

.....it's the stuff that we don't know that should be ringing fucking loud alarm bells for 95% of vapers....

Would we all agree (or most anyway) that those of us on here are passionate and reasonably well informed...we are the "5%"

For the rest, those who just solely rely on premade juice and premade coils & atty's, are fucked

The silent majority of vapers will not be able to source the very stuff that has kept them off the fags....

And then there's the juice producers....this is where it's really going to bite....forget the only selling in 10ml bottles....I'm sure that if the likes of @puffinclouds @manabush @South Coast Vaper @PlumeBlu had only that to worry about, then I'm sure that they would be out dancing in there bare scuddies, Rejoicing to a naked statue of @Mawsley

Sadly, it's not so simple....the issue is much much more complex then just producing nic free juice.....

The flavour houses that actually supply all or at least most of what we vape may not actually supply juice manufactures with the concentrates they use.....and even if they do, they will be legally obliged to produce EXACTLY what goes into the juice.....so every juice producer will have there recipe on the side of the bottle....imagine that?

Ejuice concentrates is only a tiny percentage of there business anyway...so who's to say that they would continue anyway?

Now...I totally agree that juice needs to be regulated in some way.....how? I'm not sure....but if you get the chance to see the lengths that manabush & plumeblu go to then you would understand.....both @South Coast Vaper and @puffinclouds have given whole rooms to have a "mixing studio" that I as a consumer are more then happy (and I'm sure that you would too) to use with no problem at all....

My own thoughts on this are that Brussels are either throwing us a major red heering with the tpd in its currant form, and are just waiting to fuck us all up the bum with a massive piece of legislation that will make it impossible for our producers to make any, or....and this is the one I'm hoping for, they put into law something so unbelievably unworkable that the workarounds will be there to be exploited.....

I have the feeling the first of these is gonna happen...and that vaping as we know it will cease to exist in a few short years....

I fucking hope that I am totally wrong....but i fear that for once, I may be right......

excellent post mate. .. as for regulation of juices, I was thinking that could be done along the lines of food safety laws, kitchen hygiene rules, that kind of thing... an inspection of your premises and work practices, and as for ingredients the tests that peeps like Manabush and Digbys have done and made the results public of are more than good enough for me .... I don't believe it should have even been considered under a tobacco products directive.

 

[MrTeaTime]

You're wrong on many issues there. The whole issue of revealing recipes and proprietary blends has been gone through and no-one will be forced to show their recipes,
Coils are electrical components are are outside the scope of any proposed regs.
Brussels has nothing to do with this any more. This is about transposing the Directive into local law i.e. UK law which is why it is a Reg (or SI). No Directive from the EU is legally binding on any single member state. Each EU member state adapts Directives in their own fashion. Our (UK) H&S Regs are different to those in other EU states. Our TP Regs will be very different to the way other EU member states transpose the Directive. The UK (because of the NHS and Public Health England inter alia) is toning it right down, so-called "light touch".
Reputable UK juice houses will survive. Zero nic juice if not offered in nic variations is outside the scope of any impending Regs.
There's lots more and as already mentioned by many people, there are so many loopholes, any vaper with half a brain will run rings around any half-arsed enforcement attempts.

Hopefully I'm wrong on all of them

But, speaking to a number of 'reputable' juice makers, I know that lots of the flavour houses will not release the CASS number to them as it would then reveal whats in 'there' flavourings......

 

[SirLugg]

mmmmm.......I think a few people might need to look a little deeper into this as the OP has touched on what we already know.....

.....it's the stuff that we don't know that should be ringing fucking loud alarm bells for 95% of vapers....

Would we all agree (or most anyway) that those of us on here are passionate and reasonably well informed...we are the "5%"

For the rest, those who just solely rely on premade juice and premade coils & atty's, are fucked

The silent majority of vapers will not be able to source the very stuff that has kept them off the fags....

And then there's the juice producers....this is where it's really going to bite....forget the only selling in 10ml bottles....I'm sure that if the likes of @puffinclouds @manabush @South Coast Vaper @PlumeBlu had only that to worry about, then I'm sure that they would be out dancing in there bare scuddies, Rejoicing to a naked statue of @Mawsley

Sadly, it's not so simple....the issue is much much more complex then just producing nic free juice.....

The flavour houses that actually supply all or at least most of what we vape may not actually supply juice manufactures with the concentrates they use.....and even if they do, they will be legally obliged to produce EXACTLY what goes into the juice.....so every juice producer will have there recipe on the side of the bottle....imagine that?

Ejuice concentrates is only a tiny percentage of there business anyway...so who's to say that they would continue anyway?

Now...I totally agree that juice needs to be regulated in some way.....how? I'm not sure....but if you get the chance to see the lengths that manabush & plumeblu go to then you would understand.....both @South Coast Vaper and @puffinclouds have given whole rooms to have a "mixing studio" that I as a consumer are more then happy (and I'm sure that you would too) to use with no problem at all....

My own thoughts on this are that Brussels are either throwing us a major red heering with the tpd in its currant form, and are just waiting to fuck us all up the bum with a massive piece of legislation that will make it impossible for our producers to make any, or....and this is the one I'm hoping for, they put into law something so unbelievably unworkable that the workarounds will be there to be exploited.....

I have the feeling the first of these is gonna happen...and that vaping as we know it will cease to exist in a few short years....

I fucking hope that I am totally wrong....but i fear that for once, I may be right......

I hope not too. But the major point that you and some of the rest of us has made is Brussels. Without Brussels the TPD in its current form wouldn't be there, save for the efforts of Labour and Linda McAvan.

Anyone with a shred of rational thinking realises that it's money. BT and BP are so entwined in the worlds politics they have as much influence in Europes decision making at the politicians.

Were it left to the UK alone without having to yet again tow the line to some numpty in Brussels then they'd do it as they always have: They'd tax it. But based on savings they'd make via the NHS then I really don't believe they'd tax it to oblivion. I also don't think they'd tax it to the point of making it an unattractive alternative to smoking. But taxed it would be all the same.

European politics is so corrupt it's unreal, even more so than Dave and his mates in Downing Street.

But you hit the nail squarely on the head: We don't know. We've got to wait and see. But politics are potentially going to change in a big way this year which could in turn have a direct effect on this. It's scary to think about the consequences. But don't worry just yet [emoji6]

 

[mannikon]

Hopefully I'm wrong on all of them

But, speaking to a number of 'reputable' juice makers, I know that lots of the flavour houses will not release the CASS number to them as it would then reveal whats in 'there' flavourings......

The CAS issues are probably more down to not wanting to reveal ingredients that are likely to raise health eyebrows!
US FDA regs are very often nowhere as stringent as UK or EU additive regs and the reason is the lobbying in the US and the complex legal system.
If flavour vendors have nothing to hide in that respect then they are misguided if they think that they can earn more from the other uses besides vaping. Vaping is already huge in financial terms despite all the countries (no offence to anyone reading this but the countries that have outright banned all vaping are either banana republics or peculiar puritanical systems) where it is completely banned.