FDA at it again

[Mr Ripple]

Not sure about Ecovape?
Thought it was owned by two local bods from Nottingham?

 

[jwheel]

I mean the nature of the discussion seems conspiratorial.

I’ve never heard of vip is it this mob?

https://www.vipelectroniccigarette.co.uk/

Yes. The chain breaks down as follows: BAT>Nicoventures>VIP

To address the conspiratorial comment, of course it was conspiratorial. A group of people were conspiring to uncover BT/BP owned vape brands. Some of what we found was pretty sad and disgusting really.

In some of that digging we found large scale eliquid and flavor manufacturing facilities owned, acquired or in partnerships by BT in the US, Asia and Europe being ramped up for e-liquid manufacturing on a large scale. Some of what I am about to say is speculative but not an unreasonable conclusion if the FDA and other countries equivalents regulate vaping to the point companies cant comply with regulations unless they produce in these facilities, in reading some of the about pages of these companies they actually say this in so many words. BT wins on the eliquid manufacturing front in this instance, even if they dont regulate it out of existence, these facilities can flood the market with product driving the prices down until no one can compete. All they have to do at that point is just buy the failing companies and carry on. BT/BP is putting a lot of money into the consumable side of vaping and they are doing it very quietly.

In some of our digging we found BT buying or creating partnerships with large distribution channels and companies throughout North America, Europe and Asia. This gives them control of the means of distribution, regardless of regulations. They will control product flow. They are also quietly buying chains of stores, which will allow them to posture their products on the local level.

BT Has their hands on the largest freebase and salt nic manufacturers, giving them the upper hand on nicotine.

This goes on and on. They (BT/BP) also have the money to push products to market and pay for the very expensive PMTA processes whereas a lot of boutique brands do not. They will be forced to sell or go bankrupt once enforcement of the regulations on the books kicks in. So BT/BP will be able to swoop them up for nothing or they just go away.

Since BT/BP has the money to play both sides since they win either way. If regulations murder vaping they get to pimp their products and go back to being the top of the food chain without competition. If vaping manages to survive regulations they control the means of production and the means of distribution. Which pays them on every step of the way from the time a product is created until it lands in someones mailbox.

 

[jwheel]

Not sure about Ecovape?
Thought it was owned by two local bods from Nottingham?

BAT owns Fontem Ventures, which owns Nerudia. Nerudia owns ECOpure and ECOvape.

 

[zouzounaki]

Interesting. Sorry, if my use of the word conspiratorial seemed offensive, I didn’t particularly mean it to be, and I get that with something like this there will inevitably be speculation since in its entirety it’s not open and transparent in any way and really you’re kind of piecing together a puzzle.

I’m particularly surprised about this partnership with Innokin. I’ve never seen it mentioned here. It’s the first time I’ve heard of a connection to BT from a well known, respected and I suppose I would say mainstream “high street” vape company. A lot of people on this forum are staunchly against BT, for example you might have read the thread about the my blu giveaway. I’m not at the extreme that I would have boycotted getting one for a quid and trying to hack it, but many were, and I’m sure a lot of these people don’t know about this. @Simon G have you heard about it? I’m trying to remember who else was in that thread and on the boycot side but struggling a bit, it was a while ago.

 

[Simon G]

No I'd not really looked into it ... but I'm not really surprised, I'm sure the Chinese companies would manufacture stuff for anyone if they were offered enough money. Everyone smokes in China, they aren't anti-smoking even within the vaping industry and most of what they manufacture has nothing to do with getting people off cigarettes either, that much is clear.

 

[jwheel]

Interesting. Sorry, if my use of the word conspiratorial seemed offensive, I didn’t particularly mean it to be, and I get that with something like this there will inevitably be speculation since in its entirety it’s not open and transparent in any way and really you’re kind of piecing together a puzzle.

I’m particularly surprised about this partnership with Innokin. I’ve never seen it mentioned here. It’s the first time I’ve heard of a connection to BT from a well known, respected and I suppose I would say mainstream “high street” vape company. A lot of people on this forum are staunchly against BT, for example you might have read the thread about the my blu giveaway. I’m not at the extreme that I would have boycotted getting one for a quid and trying to hack it, but many were, and I’m sure a lot of these people don’t know about this. @Simon G have you heard about it? I’m trying to remember who else was in that thread and on the boycot side but struggling a bit, it was a while ago.

No offense taken. I knew what you meant. I just wanted to make sure I was clear on our intent when we started digging around on this. I don't think any of us involved were expecting to find what we did and that list I would reason is by no means complete or comprehensive. That's just what we could find, there is certainly more. If you go through that thread, everything listed is cited and checked by others. All of the information comes from publicly available information and sources and can be verified by anyone who wishes to do so.

 

[zouzounaki]

I maybe don’t feel as strongly as some on this subject, but obviously I do see it as problematic. Many of the companies in your list seem obscure, but I get that the scenario might be quietly acquiring smaller or bunk companies, or ones that wouldn’t be in the public eye so much anyway, like distributors, then gearing them up for an eventual hostile takeover. Especially being aware of how tobacco companies are known to operate.

@Simon G would being aware of something like this make you feel strongly enough to boycott Innokin, for instance, for collaborating with BT?

@jwheel do you think, or even have evidence to suggest, that BT and BP are actively collaborating in this? Or just indulging in similar strategies? I would find the former surprising. I didn’t see anything suggesting this in your VU thread, I did skim parts of it though so may have missed stuff.

 

[Simon G]

Maybe .... I could think of many reasons that most of them could be boycotted. ... and a lot of reasons I don't know about probably too.... I'm not usually one to call or support boycotts though, if people are informed they can make their own minds up.

..... I would rather not give tobacco companies my money any more though.

 

[zouzounaki]

Aye, I think I’m a wee bit surprised about it because Busardo had spoken highly of them, but then again I’m sure like most companies it really just comes down to profit.

 

[jwheel]

I maybe don’t feel as strongly as some on this subject, but obviously I do see it as problematic. Many of the companies in your list seem obscure, but I get that the scenario might be quietly acquiring smaller or bunk companies, or ones that wouldn’t be in the public eye so much anyway, like distributors, then gearing them up for an eventual hostile takeover. Especially being aware of how tobacco companies are known to operate.

@Simon G would being aware of something like this make you feel strongly enough to boycott Innokin, for instance, for collaborating with BT?

@jwheel do you think, or even have evidence to suggest, that BT and BP are actively collaborating in this? Or just indulging in similar strategies? I would find the former surprising. I didn’t see anything suggesting this in your VU thread, I did skim parts of it though so may have missed stuff.

There is a fair amount of speculation involved and I doubt very seriously they would say they intend to destroy and eventually take over vaping, its manufacturing, distribution and consumables market. With an estimated $11 Billion a year on the table, it is not unreasonable to come to that conclusion considering how they are acquiring and partnering with manufacturers, distributors and so forth.

While some of these brands may seem obscure, they are by no means in a lot of the cases, irrelevant. Brands like Nerudia, Cosmic Fog, Nicoventures, CN Creative, VUSE, Blu, Draginite and so on are heavy, heavy hitters.

Just look at Imperial Tobacco. They purchased Hon Lik's patent portfolio (Dragonite). This man is considered the inventor of the electronic cigarette.

Nerudia is the worlds largest e-liquid manufacturer.

In the US, VUSE is a highly popular and very lucrative gas station offering that competes with JUUL. There is a reason JUUL has been demonized here as marketing to children. BT wants to sew up that market for disposables. Same for BLU.

Cosmic Fog is a very popular brand globally, with a pretty significant stake in the e-liquid market.

While seemingly obscure in some cases. This is very strategic. A successful takeover is one in which no one realizes they have been taken over.