Long term nic storage - sterilise or not?

[oldhippydude]

I must have read that thread 50 times and I can't for the life of me see where it suggests that PG nic' should last longer in the freezer than VG nic'. The "professional chemist" doesn't appear to recommend one over the other

Have you tried reading the second paragraph towards the end.

 

[scrumpox]

I'd not recommend PG nic' over VG nic' due to the increased options available with VG nic'.

That's fair enough, if you need those options. Personally I tend not to add PG to my mixes, its presence results from the nic and flavourings which only rarely prevent me from achieving an 80/20 ratio. When they do 70/30 is perfectly acceptable.

I do remember being influenced by reading that VG doesn't store for as long in the freezer as PG and you might well be right that this is nothing but an old wive's tale. Like @oldhippydude says, anecdotally we can't help but notice the reported incidents of VG nic that has gone off. The main reason I choose to use PG nic however is because it's so much easier to use and measure because it's thinner. That's a winning advantage for me.

I don't lay down large stocks of PG or VG as diluents but whilst I would happily use PG which is 6 months old, I prefer my VG to be fresh and use it within 3 months. Any VG container other than the one in current use will be refridgerated in that time.

But I do love VG ... I'll happily lick up a spill and it's great as a lubricant ... sometime both things happen at the same time.

 

[Mr Numpty]

Have you tried reading the second paragraph towards the end.

Not sure which one you mean. Is it this:

"As no long term tests have been done this is just a guess and I would think that PG+ nicotine would store better than VG+ nicotine
Regards Kev"

 

[Mr Numpty]

I do remember being influenced by reading that VG doesn't store for as long in the freezer as PG and you might well be right that this is nothing but an old wive's tale. Like @oldhippydude says, anecdotally we can't help but notice the reported incidents of VG nic that has gone off. The main reason I choose to use PG nic however is because it's so much easier to use and measure because it's thinner. That's a winning advantage for me.

As a trivial aside, the only nic' I have had go off was PG nic', but I don't hold that against it. It was probably something I did. I actually find VG nic' easier to work with. Slap it in the old ketchup bottle and squeeze. I find PG nic' tends to need a *spit* syringe.
I am in no way saying I feel the perceived wisdom that PG nic' lasts longer in the freezer is an old wives tale. I just haven't seen anything at all to suggest that VG nic' won't last for years in the freezer. Some of mine has been in the freezer for over a year and seems to be as clear and potent as the day I put it in there. Everything the "professional chemist" says seems to suggest there's no reason that shouldn't continue to be the case, as far as I can see.

 

[Unclebilbo]

I started off getting vg nic when I first started out and just kept it at room temp in my computer room after 6 months it was off this happened twice with vg nic but I didn't know better at the time.
at room temp pg nic lasts miles longer I have some here that's been in the same room since jan and is fine.
I don't use pg these days I find distilled water brings flavours out more and have started back on vg nic but it goes in the freezer its the only way to store nic long term.
vg nic is easier to work with if your measuring by weight though the thicker viscosity makes it easier to drip.

 

[danb]

I must have read that thread 50 times and I can't for the life of me see where it suggests that PG nic' should last longer in the freezer than VG nic'. The "professional chemist" doesn't appear to recommend one over the other and then some other guy asserts that PG nic' lasts longer on the shelf than VG nic' therefore it will last longer in the freezer. It's possible posts have been removed from the thread or that I am missing something, but I can't for the life of me see anything approaching strong evidence or even strong opinion that PG is preferable to VG for long term nicotine storage.

There is no actual evidence as far as I'm aware of. I re-read the post from the chemist, and I agree there is no suggestion there that PG is better or worse than VG. It is a good post with chemically sound advice, as a chemist myself there is nothing there that I disagree with.

Until I actually see someone show some data and offer a chemically coherent reason why PG should be much better than VG (or vice versa), my advice is just pick whichever you prefer for whatever reason. I am inclined to believe that the widely held opinion that PG is much better for long term storage is simply an idea that has been repeated, believed, accepted and further repeated - a fact that now makes it more or less impossible to find any real data if you google the subject. I personally prefer handling PG solutions because I find the viscosity of VG can result in messy transfers.

I doubt there is much difference because nicotine is a lot more prone to oxidative degradation than either PG or VG. Basically the nic will "go off" long before the VG does. PG might have a better shelf life than VG, but that's irrelevant given the the shorter shelf life of the nicotine. Another important point is that VG is probably often given a shelf life based on it's application as a food product, in which case it is likely to be very cautiously estimated using different criteria from those applied to the shelf life of PG. As a man who readily risks an out of date yoghurt (and a chemist who often uses reagents well past their official shelf life) without ill effect, I personally wouldn't pay much attention to the shelf life claims of VG or PG. Really, this is not something to lose sleep over.

My "the nic will go off first" argument is admittedly a very simplified one. It is true that the rates of reactions (like oxidation) vary depending on solvent (like VG and PG), so there could be differences. In this case, I would expect those differences to be small and of little practical consequence, because VG and PG are basically pretty similar in this context. The high viscosity of VG should be beneficial for long term storage, because it slows the rate of diffusion and therefore the rate of reactions.

Another reason why we might predict a solvent to be less suitable for long term storage is the possibility that the products of solvent degradation react with nicotine or even catalyse nicotine degradation. As far as I'm aware, there are no alarm bells with PG or VG; in any case, they degrade into similar cohort byproducts, so it's hard to predict whether one would be better than the other.

As for sterilisation, I would expect it to be completely unnecessary. Nothing will grow in pure VG/PG because it will not be able to cope with the massive osmotic shock (water will be rapidly sucked out of the cells) - this is also one of the reasons honey doesn't go off.

 

[Mr Numpty]

Thanks @danb. With one post I believe you have doubled the body of scientific opinion we have to reference on the matter.

 

[TeaTwoSugars]

I had this same question, in the end I didn't wash them out and just decanted straight into the glass bottles. So will this be okay or are there any potential consequences?

I did a visual check of the bottles and couldn't see anything in them, no dust etc.

 

[Vaporz1]

Not sure this has been answered somewhere else but what would be the best lid to put on the freezer bottles? There is the option of plastic or aluminium, not sure how aluminium reacts when frozen and whether the plastic used in the lids would leach either TIA

 

[Mr Numpty]

Not sure this has been answered somewhere else but what would be the best lid to put on the freezer bottles? There is the option of plastic or aluminium, not sure how aluminium reacts when frozen and whether the plastic used in the lids would leach either TIA

I remember someone saying metal lids were no use. Might have been that they would contract under freezing and lose their seal but not sure. Polycone lids are good.